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General Complaint About The Old Republic
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General Complaint About The Old Republic
 PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:27 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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The Old Republic is an era with a lot of potential, nodoubt about that. However, there is one thing that seems silly to me and that's the Sith Empire.

I certainly don't mind the idea of a Sith empire but an Empire™ (as in a precursor to the Galactic Empire) can be problematic. It's hard to imagine the citizens of the Republic embracing another Sith Empire in 19 BBY. Haven't they read history books?

Also wasn't the Republic's design in the Prequels supposed to look like a precursor to the Empire. Why would the Republic gradually make their military and designs closer in appearance to their former enemy? Wouldn't someone have objected?

Just imagine if one of our militaries decided to put this

in their symbolism. There would be a national outcry!

Seems poorly though out to me... Confused
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Last edited by Reepicheep on Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total


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 PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:44 pm Reply with quote  
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  Crash Override
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The Old Republic era seems to be designed to appeal to the widest audience, anachronisms be damned. It's basically the Galactic Empire versus the Galactic Republic.

It's not really interesting as a setting because it has no true identity of its own, besides cherry-picking what the developers liked from the movies, and to a lesser degree, the Expanded Universe.





I dislike that the Galactic Empire's insignia is now both a perversion of a Jedi symbol AND an ancient Sith Empire symbol.


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 PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:22 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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^ I agree about the cherry-picking. That's one thing I noticed when reading Fatal Alliance- this is a brand new time period but why does it feel like more of the same? There's Mandos, Jedi, Sith, the Empire, the Republic, Stormies (or at least their ancestor model) and I love all those things but it felt really stale for an era that's supposed to be so new and exciting. Neutral
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Re: General Complaint About The Old Republic
 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:44 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Reepicheep wrote:
The Old Republic is an era with a lot of potential, nodoubt about that. However, there is one thing that seems silly to me and that's the Sith Empire.

I certainly don't mind the idea of a Sith empire but an Empire™ (as in a precursor to the Galactic Empire) can be problematic. It's hard to imagine the citizens of the Republic embracing another Sith Empire in 19 BBY. Haven't they read history books?

Also wasn't the Republic's design in the Prequels supposed to look like a precursor to the Empire. Why would the Republic gradually make their military and designs closer in appearance to their former enemy? Wouldn't someone have objected?

Just imagine if one of our militaries decided to put this

in their symbolism. There would be a national outcry!

Seems poorly though out to me... Confused


While I agree it may have been wrong to model the Sith Empire on the GA (though I can understand it as a marketing thing) I'll concentrate on the in-universe aspect. Maybe include a dance number, too! Though I do warn it's simply conjecture on my part.

It is my belief that, in the intervening time between 1000BBY and 19BBY the Banites slowly weaved their influence into the republic. While their goal was to destroy the republic, and not simply to transform it into their own empire (a thought that first arose with Palpatine) I feel it more than likely that their influence had a side effect in bringing in Sith designs, ship and armour designs (I believe it probable that the Banites would own such companies, and so introduce that when tasked by the government to come up with new designs). As well, their influence was used, I further think, to sow discord among the people, to corrupt the government (so that the people will be grateful for when a new, outside Sith government show up) and to lure the Jedi Order into a sense of complacency, and to distance them from the 'real' world.

As to why the citizens would embrace another Sith empire, well, I could see that happening. As a body of people, we have a rather short attention span, often making the same mistakes as our predecessors. Too, to the ordinary people the Jedi and Sith, especially towards the end of the republic, were simply two different religious bodies, much like protestantism and catholicism. If you weren't so interested in history, would you be able to tell that there was a sociopath who committed genocide several thousand years ago?

On a smaller, not wholly related note, the Nazis stole the swastika. It was originally a peace symbol to the Buddhists (though I'm not entirely certain of that aspect) and I wouldn't mind if it was rehabilited to mean as such, but making sure we never forgot that other meaning. There was a similar movement during Mo-vember (moustache November), to reclaim the Hitler 'tache.
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:05 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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That's a valid point, Life. I can see the Sith starting to influence the Republic but it still seems unbelievable that no one spoke up about it.

In fact, here's strong evidence. The picture of the swastika that I uploaded on Photobucket has now been removed because it "vilolated [their] terms of use". Confused

And about the Republic citizens embracing Palpatine's Empire, again, I think it's realistic but only if the empire from the past isn't the Empire™. I could buy a (real-world) democracy embracing another fascist regime, but not a blatantly Nazi one. That is far fetched.

By the way I've actually seen the swastika on medieval heraldry before, but I never heard it was used by the Buddhists (if that's true Wink ).
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:08 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Just popping out so can't respond in great detail. The peace bit is true - it's the Buddhist bit I'm not sure of (though I'm almost certain it was them). Will fact check later. Toodaloo!
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:54 am Reply with quote  
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  Darth Skuldren
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I read that Hitler actually got the idea for the swastika because he saw it in a church. The indians also used the symbol as a sun wheel.

As for the Sith Empire and Galactic Empire, you have to remember that Emperor Palpatine did not reveal to the galaxy that he was a Sith Lord. The galaxy was let to believe that Vader was the only Sith Lord. So the Galactic Empire wasn't perceived as a Sith Empire by the people, it would be only afterwards that they would realize all of this. And even then, look what happens in LOTF. Jacen proclaims himself a Sith Lord and they go ahead and give him the reigns of government. History is very cyclical in nature.

Now I don't really have a good understanding of the Sith Empire during this new TOR period (post-KOTOR games). The way the TOR game has been revealed, this Sith Empire seems to be very much like the Imperial Remnant, but with Sith Lords instead of Moffs running the show. I certainly don't know enough about it yet to make any final opinions. It may work, it may bring up things I don't really like. I'll have to wait and see. So far though it seems alright. It's not perfect but its following the familiar Star Wars formula and it's hard to fault them for that.
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:49 pm Reply with quote  
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  Rouge77
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Swastika is indeed an extremely widespread in ancient cultures for some reason. It was common motive in the pre-Etruscan Villanova culture's artifacts in Italy some three thousand years ago.

It's utterly spoiled now as a symbol because of Nazism, but who knows what is the situation three thousand years into the future?

To take over the Republic Palpatine didn't need the public's support. He needed to get the support of those that mattered - the Senate and the megacorporations and so on - and create a powerbase for himself in the form of a new military and to get rid of those who could oppose him, mainly the Jedi.

Corrupt the center, get boots on the streets and purge the main opponents. And thus a Republic becomes an Empire. People don't have to embrace the new Empire, it embraces them and doesn't let them go.

Naturally the Sith Empire is intended to be like the one in the movies to draw in casual fans, but I think the idea of Palpatine partly modelling his Empire after it works to some degree.


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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:26 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
I read that Hitler actually got the idea for the swastika because he saw it in a church. The indians also used the symbol as a sun wheel.

As for the Sith Empire and Galactic Empire, you have to remember that Emperor Palpatine did not reveal to the galaxy that he was a Sith Lord. The galaxy was let to believe that Vader was the only Sith Lord. So the Galactic Empire wasn't perceived as a Sith Empire by the people, it would be only afterwards that they would realize all of this. And even then, look what happens in LOTF. Jacen proclaims himself a Sith Lord and they go ahead and give him the reigns of government. History is very cyclical in nature.

If Palpatine didn't want anyone to know the new Empire was a Sith empire, why did he broadcast it with a recycled symbol of the ancient Sith Empire?

@Rouge 77: Point taken. However, I can't see even the Senate accepting the Galactic Empire when they saw where it was drawing its roots from. The Emperor eventually "dissolved the Senate" and, seeing as his Empire was a Sith Empire, that isn't surprising at all.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:14 am Reply with quote  
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  Life Is The Path
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Hmm, I don't think it was a case of the new Empire drawing its roots from the Sith Empire, but rather that the Republic already was that beast, at least on the face of it. Aesthetically.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:39 am Reply with quote  
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  illogicalRogue2
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Darth Skuldren wrote:
I read that Hitler actually got the idea for the swastika because he saw it in a church. The indians also used the symbol as a sun wheel.


Yep it was to signify the Sun and peace.


He totally mistook the image for something else. And look- it's been RETCONED only Hitlers version seems to matter anymore. Or that's ALL anyone remembers.
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:11 am Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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Life Is The Path wrote:
Hmm, I don't think it was a case of the new Empire drawing its roots from the Sith Empire, but rather that the Republic already was that beast, at least on the face of it. Aesthetically.

Well, pick your poison. Either way, there would have been objections- especially, I think, when old Sith Empire influences cropped up in the free, democratic Galactic Republic.
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:29 pm Reply with quote  
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  MasterAndrew15
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The basic idea presented here is one that I have seem frequently in fandom; the "unoriginality" of the TOR era. The trooper armor; the weapons and abilities, not too far removed to those of people 3,000 years in the future. How does one explain it? For me, it's always been like this: Everything needs a starting point; nothing comes without first version, be them better or worse. It also comes down to this: Why fix what isn't broken? Plus, in a pure real-world sense, it makes the era appealing to fans, old and new, something marketing was quite wise to do, even if some older fans find it a bit unoriginal, they won't not play it-- there's not reason, at this point, no to play the game or look into the era in different mediums (its novels, webcomics, comics, etc.)
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:16 pm Reply with quote  
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  Reepicheep
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That's a valid point. I would like to see more originality though- there's really nothing we haven't seen before and some of the implications are questionable (i.e. the Republic basing designs on the Sith Empire).
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:57 pm Reply with quote  
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  MasterAndrew15
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Oh, I would, too-- I just can understand why Bioware and the others now playing in this section decided to make it the way it is. Doesn't mean I'm in 100% agreement with it, but hey, it works.
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